Electric Cars !

[maweida]

Ok, so have been thinking about EV's. On the surface, they sound great, no fuel, clean (if you charge with solar, not coal), quiet but are they.....

- Cost ... a basic EV starts at $80,000, so comparing to a $40,0000 CX5 it takes ALOT of fuel to save the $40,000 difference. At 10,000km per year at 7l/100 = $1,400 per year in fuel, so $40,000 / $1,400 = 28 years to repay the difference!!! what the!. Also most will redraw on their Morgage, so the interest on $80,000 at 7% = $5,600 per year (far greater than the fuel saving). Also, if you charge your car with coal power, it still costs you electricity (so instead of paying for petrol, your power bill goes up). Fuel seems expensive, but when you crunch the numbers, its very cheap (compared to interest on loan etc).

- Environmental - most EV owners charge their cars with coal fired power. This produces way more Co2 than burning petrol. Charging from your solar panels is the best way (if you have them)

- Shape - most EVs are crappy sedans, no one likes sedans anymore, the boots are small and the driving position is too low, and no offroads etc (can't really compare). Also, EV's can't tow, so they don't even match the capability of an internal combustion car.

- Range - my MuX gets 7.3l/100 - so 1100km from a tank, most EVs only go 500km. LiPo batteries are highly temperature sensitive, at zero degrees, your range can drop by 1/3 (ouch).

- Life - everyone knows that LiFePO4 batteries are lucky to last 8 years. Then you need to buy another $80,000 car. An Isuzu will last 20 years and 300,000km! However, very likely that aftermarket batteries will be available (to avoid having to purchase a new EV)

- Rubbish - ICE (internal combustion) cars last 15-20 years, but EVS only last 8 years. Therefore there will be twice the rubbish (old cars) generated. Also, ICE cars are fully recyclable, but EVS have heavy metals (lithium, copper, Nickle, niobium).

- Resale value - EV batteries have warranties from 5 - 8 years, however, what will the resale value be of your $80,000 car after 8 years (when the warranty expires), will be interesting, but would have thought you would have to give it away!

- Fire hazards, EVS catch fire and I've heard that your house is not covered by insurance if your EV catches fire. 

- Insurance costs - i just got a quote for a $80k Tesla Y, at $1600, but my $55k MUX is only $700 (now i have $1000 to buy fuel!)

I think EVS have a future, but they need to be charged by green power, last longer, longer range, SUV shape, and be half the price, and tow 3 tonne for me to consider this (just a few things    )

Elon has a bit of work to do!!

[VALKIE]

A very clear and concise consideration of the facts as we know them.

But try to get that by EV nuts and the fanatic in the climate religion.

The grubberment and those making a great deal of money from these EVs are doing an excellent job brainwashing idiots into believing lies and mistruths.

But all things aside, as you have pointed out
they are not a viable replacement for a good old diesel 4x4, never will be with the current technology.
And I'm not seeing any wonderous and game changing technology on the horizon either.

But, in the end, we will all be forced into these things eventually one way or another.
Just look at the price of diesel.
Up until the grubberment decided to go after utes and 4x4s, diesel was always 30 to 50c a liter cheaper than petrol (only logical really as it is less refined).
And when that failed, they decided to price us away from them.

Makes you wonder who is paying the bribes.

[257Bob]

- Life - everyone knows that LiFePO4 batteries are lucky to last 8 years. Then you need to buy another $80,000 car. An Isuzu will last 20 years and 300,000 500,000km!

Fixed it.   

Seriously, you have hit the nail on the head.  I wouldn't be paying $80 000 every eight years.  My Dmax is over eight years now with 160 000km.  I'm keeping it till at least 300 000km, hopefully 400 000km.  Too much money to lose every eight years.  I'm not sure what the resale value is on an eight year EV with a worn out battery.  Not much I'd say.  Maybe people will wise up in a few years when it comes time to upgrade and they see how much money they have lost. 

[applemaxvic]

Electric Cars. real life account of the owner ship of an Electric car for the last 2 years.

In 2022 We bought a 2020 Nissian Leaf with 7,000Km on the clock for NZd $38,000, Yes I live here in NZ when Im not Travelling Aust In my 2015 Dmax.
our old runaround town car was a toyota Avensis 2005 doing 20,000 km per year,10lt/100km on 98octane,our fuel bill has been $6000 per year plus 2oil/filter changes. yes we pay $3.00 per litre 98 petrol, Diesel In NZ is around $1.80lt
The EV Nissin Leaf is a hatch back similar size to a  Toyota Corolla.
We are doing 20,000km per year so far. its a great little car to drive and it can out accelerate a V8 if you need to quickly pass another vehicle.
We have done 40,000km so far and have not needed to service anything, nothing!!! We will need to replace tyres at 50.000km.
We have solar panels on the house and can  charge car slowly thru the day, we have a Electric Power company tarrif that allows for  free power from the grid between 9pm and Midnight so can top up EV  then at no cost.
Our home power bill is averaging $45 per month because of the solar panels
So far in two years we have saved $11,860 in fuel costs compared to the 2005 toyota.
We have a 4x4 Isuzu with the 4Jb1  2.8 turbo  for long adventure trips where ever.
In Australia you can buy a petty dam good EV for $45,000,  you can spend more if you chose.
The EV makers are all guaranteeing the  car and batteries to last  better than 70% after 8 Years. or there abouts.
Many EV have hit 200,000 Miles and more.
Coal fired power stations can  extract better the 95% of the energy potential of the coal.
An ICE engine, petrol or diesel, barely can extract 30% of the energy potential of the fuel they burn.
4x4 EV are available now but pricey, car companys are pretty focused on city cars for obvious reasons.

We are really enjoying owning this EV Leaf, its good to drive and I'm not missing all the servicing not needed,
and while like all newish car, it has depreciated in Value , the saving in fuel has cancelled that out,

It does take a bit of rethinking but pretty doable  even for us old fellows,
Cheers Bob

[Munro]

All pros and cons aside, my main gripe with EVs is that we simply don't have the infrastructure to handle everyone plugging in to some extent at night. 

The poles and wires can't hack it, we aren't too terrible for outright generation when you factor renewables but we don't have anything like the storage needed, and once we put PV on every roof with batteries to feed your car at night, you might as well wave goodbye to clean water and air as a result of the industrial processes alone.  Nothing, not even sun and wind power, is free.

I will be dead before those gremlins are ironed out.

[Bucko]

Electric cars..Yeah, to say I haven't been thinking about it would be fibbing.  Will it save me money in the long run?  Will it be reliable? Like everyone my situation is more or less different to others.  Cost will vary depending on the location your in. 
My requirements:  I'll still have to have a vehicle to tow a van.  I also have a small hobby block around 150ks from home.  I cart small loads of wood during the winter months for our city wood heater.  I've been averaging around the 15,000ks per year but this could change to more later this year. One or two trips to the coast in the van per year. (averaging 10.37l/100ks, includes towing)
Mrs Bucko requirements: Currently only driving short distances of around 40Ks round trip.  Average usage of around 7000ks maximum a year.  Her current car is a 2006 C4 Citroen (5l/100K's) with just over 200,000ks.
So really in the current EV offerings Mrs Bucko's car could be replaced with an EV or maybe hybrid.  We do a have 5KW solar system but our house orientation is not really solar friendly.  We would also need to charge outside as the garage is currently my workshop.  And really do I want to charge an EV in a garage which is under my house? Maybe not.  Would I be happy with replacing a battery pack after 8-10years?  Not really and the cost of replacement is only to go up.  I gather hybrid's also have the same battery pack replacement requirements but the costs should be a lot lower one would think. Hybrid's also have an increased requirements of ICE servicing and fuel costs.
This article might also explain some of the servicing requirements of EV's.
https://www.whichcar.com.au/advice/ev-servicing-costs-explained
 
Might have to do a little moar reviewing and number crunching.  But at first looks Mrs Bucko next runabout might be a cheap ICE or Hybrid.
 
Safe motoring everyone.   
 

   
         
 

[maweida]

Hi all,
I've updated the original assessment above with your comments. I'm not an EV hater, in fact i think they would be excellent with a few tweeks (but yes, i do love diesel, the smell, the combustion, the spirit, the sound!!).

My friend recently bought a BMW EV ($100k) and was skiting how much fuel they were saving. I just wanted to know (all things considered), if it was indeed a saving. Clearly a big NO as the purchase price is too high, and fuel is not that dear!

Much better to spend the $100k on ETFs and make 10% per year ($10,000) and be happy to spend $1400 on petrol per year.

[maweida]

Coal fired power stations can  extract better the 95% of the energy potential of the coal.
An ICE engine, petrol or diesel, barely can extract 30% of the energy potential of the fuel they burn.
4x4 EV are available now but pricey, car companys are pretty focused on city cars for obvious reasons.

Power stations are less than 30% efficient, minus transmission losses, so maybe 90% loss by the time the power reaches your house!!

[VALKIE]

I was reading an article some time ago about EVs and their applications.

One thing stuck out at me, There are fast chargers, but these things pull a hell of a lot of current.
The article, if i can find it, stated that it was around the same as that of 50 to 80 houses normal drain.

Put 10 in a street and it gets interesting.
In my street, every house has 3 to 4 cars, it starts adding up rather quickly.
We won't need streetlights, the glowing power lines will solve that.

Then, as someone pointed out, the infrastructure isn't close to being enough yet.
Imagine living in a suburb in Sydney (I lived in Marrickville for 30 years).
There was only one house in my street that had a driveway, and that was typical for many streets in the area.
Where does the extension cord run?
So its either hang around the charging station every couple of days, or fight with people to run an extension cord to your car, far from practical.

Then we have the elephant in the room.
We currently have a grubberment hell bent on going carbon free (yeah right)
We all know that with this fanatical exuberance will come power shortages until the "planned" infrastructure and renewables come on line.
By adding additional power drain from thousands of EVs charging up when "the wind don't blow and the sun don't shine" we is gonna be in a bit of trouble.
Most people will want to charge over night, wow, this is gonna be fun.
Huge batteries will be required to charge up the car batteries and run heating and cooling for our homes, oh and one dim witted premier wants only electric cooking as well.

Now, Im only a lowly engineer, but my math tells me something is going to fail.
and its gonna be a huge fail.

Im all for advancement, the more the better.
But common sense says that before you start tearing down infrastructure that is working, before replacing said infrastructure that is barely meeting demands.
And then introduce an additional drain on the less than adequate system, you should really have a plan.

EVs are nowere near where they need to be.
Infrastructure is nowhere near where it needs to be
and punishing everyone who sees this by heaping on taxes, fines and additional charges is simply stupid.
Im keeping my MUX until this is all sorted out....IF.

[Bob]

My D-Max has just ticked over 10 years and 100,000km and I have ticked over 71 years.

I feel I only have another year or 2 of caravaning in me, it is just so much work to pack and unpack and we have been just about everywhere we want to go a couple of times.

My thoughts are to sell the rig and trade my wifes car in on a new EV. I don't see us doing many more country trips and only venture out of home to go shopping or visit the kids so charging an EV at home will be about all we need and using our 5kw of solar and charging during the day (setting a time switch for daylight hours means that we are not paying for power to charge the EV.

This will likely be our last car so want to make the correct choice a and EV seems a good option to me.

[257Bob]

My biggest issue with EVs is travelling for extended trips away from urban areas.  I can throw five 20L drums of diesel on the back and top up when I need to. 

Will I now need to take a generator and drums of petrol?  How fast will a generator charge the battery?  Do I need to get up in the middle of the night and refuel the generator?  Will the bloody generator have to run all night keeping me awake? 

I think a small EV would be good living in the city if you lived the city life style, but what about those of us who want to travel to remote places?  Can you imagine reaching some remote town on a near empty battery and seeing 50 grey nomads lined up waiting to charge. 

I can see someone calling an ambulance and it doesn't turn up because it's run flat.  Or watching your house burn down because the fire truck is charging.  Imagine trying to fight bush fires and the vehicles are all charging for an hour or more.  Imagine trying to flee from a bushfire and your vehicle needs charging and there are 50 people trying to charge at four stations.  I don't think those in charge have thought through some of these issues fully. 

[Bob]

Obviously EV is not for everybody but i think it fits my future use quiet well.

Valkie, I don't know where you got those figure from but I doubt they they are correct otherwise you could not charge it at home.

[dilbert]

My D-Max has just ticked over 10 years and 100,000km and I have ticked over 71 years.

I feel I only have another year or 2 of caravaning in me, it is just so much work to pack and unpack and we have been just about everywhere we want to go a couple of times.

My thoughts are to sell the rig and trade my wifes car in on a new EV. I don't see us doing many more country trips and only venture out of home to go shopping or visit the kids so charging an EV at home will be about all we need and using our 5kw of solar and charging during the day (setting a time switch for daylight hours means that we are not paying for power to charge the EV.

This will likely be our last car so want to make the correct choice a and EV seems a good option to me.

Hey Bob, in the words of Clint Eastwood, Toby Keith and Willie Nelson..."Don't let the old man in" mate. I'm only a couple of years behind you, and have no plans to let go of the MU-X.

[guyfromaus]

The  battery reduces in capacity as it ages   so if you get 400k on a charge when new  it will be lesser as it ages!
On talk back radio in Adelaide today a motor trader said a 2 yo Tesla with  say 50k on the clock would not be popular with dealers- unlikely would trade in.

[257Bob]

My D-Max has just ticked over 10 years and 100,000km and I have ticked over 71 years.

I feel I only have another year or 2 of caravaning in me, it is just so much work to pack and unpack and we have been just about everywhere we want to go a couple of times.

My thoughts are to sell the rig and trade my wifes car in on a new EV. I don't see us doing many more country trips and only venture out of home to go shopping or visit the kids so charging an EV at home will be about all we need and using our 5kw of solar and charging during the day (setting a time switch for daylight hours means that we are not paying for power to charge the EV.

This will likely be our last car so want to make the correct choice a and EV seems a good option to me.

Maybe sell the caravan and concentrate on day trips.  Don't stop doing what you love.