Oz Isuzu Forums
General Boards => Off Topic => Topic started by: xsm on Nov 24, 2017, 10:14:54 AM
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I thought I would post up about a situation a friend of mine has found himself in.
He bought a brand new 4X4 NP300 ute and a camper trailer to do a 12 month trip around Australia. His trip involved doing some of the outback dirt roads (Great Central Road etc). Due to this, he decided to option up the NP with aftermarket suspension lift. All arranged by the dealer and fitted pre delivery. The dealer also offered him an extended warranty which he declined.
They spent a couple of months preparing for the trip before leaving Canberra. All camper and car weights were well within limits. When in Bourke, they noticed that the chassis on the NP300 had bent. They hadn't even hit the dirt yet. The car and camper were towed back to Dubbo where everything was weighed and found to be within limits.
Warranty claim was rejected due to "aftermarket accessories fitted and external forces". It made no difference that the suspension modification was done/arranged pre delivery by the dealer. Insurance was also denied. He has been left high and dry with a $40,000 to $50,000 write off.
He came home, got his 18 year old Prado, and has now completed 16,000kms of his trip in that.
I'm not posting this to bag Nissan. Please find a "bent chassis" thread if you want to take this thread in that direction.
I'm posting this to let people know that they should have the "warranty" conversation with their dealer, and get a written warranty if they choose to have accessories or mods done pre delivery. I know that many people choose to have aftermarket mods and accessories fitted pre delivery because they believe that they will be covered by warranty.
Cheers
Martin
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If it was Nissan who refused the warranty claim, then Nissan was totally within their legal rights to do so. Check your warranty documents. The suspension would not have been a genuine Nissan accessory.
Any warranty claims for the aftermarket suspension or any subsequent damage, lies with the dealer who fitted it.
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XSM
Is the owner sure it wasn’t bent when new? Most dealers, in fact all dealers don’t, don’t check the vehicle integrity as supplied. Many D40 Navaras were sold in Australia supplied from the factory with bent chassis so I am not surprised it is bent.
Where it is bent is the interesting thing. Maybe more info relating to the position of the bend will mean much more to readers.
I have pictures of two D40’s brand new on the lot for sale and both were/are bent. Both red and sold in central Vic.
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No, wasn't bent at delivery. Friend is not the sort of bloke that would not notice. He is very car savvy. I can't say exactly where the chassis is bent. I haven't seen it, he flew home from Dubbo to collect his Prado and headed off again. Even if it was bent prior to delivery, that would be impossible to prove now.
The point of the post is not about the car, it's about the issue of who is responsible when damage is caused by pre delivery modifications/accessories. Many people pay more than they need to for modifications/accessories done prior to delivery because they are of the mistaken belief that they will be covered by the new car warranty.
Perhaps if the fault is with the actual accessory or modification the responsibility is more clear cut. It is harder to get one single party to take responsibility when the modification/accessory CAUSES damage to other parts of the vehicle.
I think it is good advice for new car buyers to have this covered in their purchase contract so that they know exactly where they stand and the level of risk they're exposed to.
Cheers
Martin
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I think it is good advice for new car buyers to have this covered in their purchase contract so that they know exactly where they stand and the level of risk they're exposed to.
Ummm, Australian Consumer Law.
Putting an warranty clause about non-genuine accessories into a sales contract would be full of holes if challenged in a Court.
This issue is more about the purchaser’s naivety.
Out of curiosity, were airbags involved?
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Martin, I understand, and appreciate, the point that you make about warranty.
It would be helpful to know the details of the aftermarket suspension that was fitted, in order to provide context to the discussion. People want to know how and why things bend so they can avoid similar pitfalls.
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Most aftermarket suspension is a bit stiffer perhaps but also more compliant than OE and allow more suspension movement/travel to absorb axle movement under load so no bottoming happens. Bottoming is what WILL cause a chassis bend. it appears the NP300 is either a weak chassis or it was bent from new.
Despite the owner being an aware person, they may have not detected the fault when new. It isn't something you go looking for is it? As others mentioned, it is where the bend is which is of interest.
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I find it hard to believe the insurance claim gets rejected and you take it on the chin. If all components fitted are Australian Design rule compliant then what grounds does the insurance company have to dismiss this claim. There are legal firms out there who specialise in sorting this stuff out. Surely $40000 to $ 50000 worth of vehicle would be enough incentive to pursue this. Small claims tribunal, A Current Affairs, local newspaper could all help in some way. Cheers Shane
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Little confused. How is it an insurance claim? Was the bent chassis caused by impact? Maybe I missed that detail.
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I think it's a case of nobody taking ownership of the problem because there are so many stakeholders.
Yes, in normal circumstances you would go through the hoops and use whatever avenues are available to get a satisfactory outcome. In this case, there was a long awaited, round Australia trip to get underway and knowing full well this was going to take a lot of time to resolve my mate just got on with it and I say good on him for not letting the issue possess him.
He is still doing what he can from afar and the car will likely be repaired at some point.
I'm not sure exactly where the bend is or the type of suspension mods done but I believe air bags are not involved.
Cheers
Martin
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It becomes an insurance issue if you can't get a satisfactory result from the manufacturer. They have the resources to get you back on the road and then they can chase up being compensated. On face value the owner of the vehicle has done nothing wrong or illegal to a vehicle which is not fit for purpose. This is one of the reasons we all pay insurance. Sure you could argue these type of claims add to all our premiums but I for one think this is the course of action reasonable.
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If the fault is not caused by an accident, it is accident insurance afterall, then it is not an insurance claim, I would think.
If a bearing blows in the engine, is that claimable on insurance if IUA says the bearing failure was due to, let’s say, a performance chip? Don’t think so.
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I would have thought a vehicle warranty was void when there is a defect which could be attributed to the subsequent fitting of an after-market component.
In this case Nissan had nothing to do with the altered suspension so any warranty issue would be between the owner and the supplier. In this case the dealer. Obviously most dealers will try to avoid responsibility by implying or stating the owner needs to deal directly with the company that did the suspension upgrade. Or they will say the owner overloaded the vehicle and did the damage. The company who upgraded the suspension will probably state they don't have any contractual obligations or responsibility towards the owner because their client was the dealer.
The cynic in me would say insurance companies exist to take your money; remove operating expenses; and give the remainder to their shareholders. The LAST thing they will want to do is give the customer money. They employ in-house lawyers to minimise that happening.
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Yes, very well said Tom. The person to target here for justice must be the dealer, who entered into an agreement to modify the vehicle, on the new owner's behalf, before finalisation of the sale. Which brings us back to Martin's original point; make that agreement in writing, and make it watertight.
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Freddie, I see your point but park your vehicle in your driveway and a storm comes while you Holliday in the south of France and floods the vehicle to the roof line. Not an accident. Vehicle gets stolen and never seen again. Not an accident. Apparently Nissan owners in the U.K. Have put enormous pressure on because of bent Chassis problems. And yes the dealer has to bear the responsibility and rectify. You would expect aftermarket suspension should be ADR approved as I said in a previous post.
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Which brings us back to Martin's original point; make that agreement in writing, and make it watertight.
And how does the average car buyer do that? Nothing that would stand up in a court of law that’s for sure.
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Freddie, I see your point but park your vehicle in your driveway and a storm comes while you Holliday in the south of France and floods the vehicle to the roof line. Not an accident. Vehicle gets stolen and never seen again. Not an accident. Apparently Nissan owners in the U.K. Have put enormous pressure on because of bent Chassis problems. And yes the dealer has to bear the responsibility and rectify. You would expect aftermarket suspension should be ADR approved as I said in a previous post.
OK, it is comprehensive insurance which includes accident, fire, flooding and theft :icon_thumleft: Was just trying to keep it simple for this discussion as the chassis has obvously not been stolen nor flooded :laughing7:
My arguement still stands that none of the insurance policy’s event definitions would fit a bent chassis, well at least not under the conditions described in the OP.
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Which brings us back to Martin's original point; make that agreement in writing, and make it watertight.
And how does the average car buyer do that? Nothing that would stand up in a court of law that’s for sure.
I'm posting this because many new car buyers use dealers to provide mods/accessories, pre delivery because they are under the impression that they will be covered under their new car warranty. The mods/accessories are often more expensive when purchased this way and the buyer is restricted to brands/businesses that the dealer uses. Many buyers are prepared to accept this just to have it all covered under new car warranty (which in most cases probably isn't).
The point is, that the car buyer has the conversation with the dealer about having any pre delivery aftermarket accessories warranted, and that the warranty includes subsequent vehicle damage. If, in that conversation, the dealer declines to put that warranty in writing, the car buyer can then look at their other options for aftermarket accessories. They may well feel better about dealing direct with an aftermarket supplier of their choice and even also discuss any warranty issues first hand with their own supplier. The new car buyer may even decide not to go ahead with the aftermarket gear and not compromise the warranty.
.......or maybe the dealer will provide an acceptable written warranty. Probably not but at least you know exactly where you stand.
Cheers
Martin
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XSM
I agree, but it just goes to show how unprincipled the dealer networks for any make of vehicle really are. They will fit what you want with no warning or alert about the consequences of what they are happy to fit. As mentioned, they make extra money supplying items from their suppliers who they have “arrangements” with. It all relies on the unjustified trust of the customer who are led to believe the dealer is “ looking after them”.
Most deals are done by the vermin called salespersons. They sell for commission, no other reason.
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XSM
I agree, but it just goes to show how unprincipled the dealer networks for any make of vehicle really are. They will fit what you want with no warning or alert about the consequences of what they are happy to fit. As mentioned, they make extra money supplying items from their suppliers who they have “arrangements” with. It all relies on the unjustified trust of the customer who are led to believe the dealer is “ looking after them”.
Most deals are done by the vermin called salespersons. They sell for commission, no other reason.
True true. ......and in this case they even tried to sell him and extended warranty. :laughing4:
I worked as a car salesman for a brief period back in the '90's. I was selling lots of cars, I was also selling my soul, wasn't for me. It was grubby then, it's twice as grubby now.
I thought it would be good because I have an interest in cars. Haha, it's got absolutely nothing to do with cars.
The aftermarket accessories business is where it's at. Absolutely booming. Huge numbers of people buying hugely expensive stuff that they don't need and never will need and ads nothing to the value of their depreciating asset - but it looks good.
Rant over.
Cheers
Martin
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When we bought out Mux in 2015 the dealer was adamant that they would not fit any after market accessories that were not authorized by Isuzu, this guys dealer was obviously not as rigid. As to who is responsible you can take your pick, the owner for choosing the modifications, the suspension manufacturer for selling (and recommending?) suspension not suitable for the vehicle or the dealer for fitting unsuitable suspension when they have a duty of care to the car owner.
The only ones that are not responsible are Isuzu who specifically state that any modifications not approved by them will void warranty and the insurance company, as the vehicle has not been involved in an accident. But saying that I have also heard of many similar incidents where both the manufacturer and the insurance company have come to the party and covered the cost of repairs.
The OP's warning should be heeded by anybody that wants to modify their car while under warranty, this happens an awful lot.
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Magilla
The vehicle did have after market suspension fitted and partly because of that warrnty has been refused. It is the manufacturers perogative to refuse when anything they don't want to cover is used.
The suspension may not be the fault at all and it may be better than the OE suspension. It is easily blamed and is being blamed as the cause here, but that may not be actually true. I suspect it would not be true.
I modified my suspension to create more up travel to absorb bumps and the rear would bottom with original suspension. That would have meant I would have instant stress loading on my rear axle and chassis area.
My thoughts are: the suspension is being zeroed in on, but no one, not even the dealer or parent company has proof it is the cause.
PS.
Many Japanese based vehicles have been produced with SUB standard steel from falsely specified KOBE steel. Nissan is probably one of those companies and perhaps the steel in the chassis is Not Up To Spec, and that could be why it has bent.
If so, NEW VEHICLE is to be provided for reasons of Not Fit For Purpose.
There are quite a few Nissan NP300 getting around and some have suspension and other mods fitted and I am not aware of problems with bends in chassis, but that could change.
I understand Isuzu has been asked if their vehicles are affected. I believe the reply stated no direct KOBE STEEL is used but they are not sure if any smaller supplier uses KOBE STEEL and therefore could affect some Isuzus too. That is unknown at this stage.
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I think most of us know any non genuine accessories fitted , even when fitted by the dealer will be used for a warranty rejection by IUA if at all possible , just look at the cracked guards issue everything from after market bull bars , suspension just about anything fitted to the front is used for a claim denial.
I had a discussion with the dealer principal where I bought my Dmax a few months ago , in their opinion a GVM upgrade was a very good idea and they do recommend one , we also discussed Diff drops when the GVM upgrade was fitted , they were going to recommend including one with the suspension, would it effect warranty , yep you bet it would , even though the dealer thinks it's a great idea .
If you really want to keep the warranty the vehicle needs to be completely stock std .
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Magilla
The vehicle did have after market suspension fitted and partly because of that warrnty has been refused. It is the manufacturers perogative to refuse when anything they don't want to cover is used.
The suspension may not be the fault at all and it may be better than the OE suspension. It is easily blamed and is being blamed as the cause here, but that may not be actually true. I suspect it would not be true.
I modified my suspension to create more up travel to absorb bumps and the rear would bottom with original suspension. That would have meant I would have instant stress loading on my rear axle and chassis area.
My thoughts are: the suspension is being zeroed in on, but no one, not even the dealer or parent company has proof it is the cause.
PS.
Many Japanese based vehicles have been produced with SUB standard steel from falsely specified KOBE steel. Nissan is probably one of those companies and perhaps the steel in the chassis is Not Up To Spec, and that could be why it has bent.
If so, NEW VEHICLE is to be provided for reasons of Not Fit For Purpose.
There are quite a few Nissan NP300 getting around and some have suspension and other mods fitted and I am not aware of problems with bends in chassis, but that could change.
I understand Isuzu has been asked if their vehicles are affected. I believe the reply stated no direct KOBE STEEL is used but they are not sure if any smaller supplier uses KOBE STEEL and therefore could affect some Isuzus too. That is unknown at this stage.
Yes mate, I am sure the suspension fitted was probably superior to the standard suspension but that is irrelevant in a warranty claim. Isuzu does not have to prove the aftermarket suspension was inferior in any way, just that it had been fitted and therefore contravenes their requirements of the vehicle to be only fitted with authorized accessories. I don't necessarily agree with it but understand why it is that way. If the owner can prove that other identical vehicles that had not been modified have suffered the same damage then he has a strong case to pursue it.
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I’ve never brought I new car, but this has been interesting read.
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I thought I would post up about a situation a friend of mine has found himself in.
He bought a brand new 4X4 NP300 ute and a camper trailer to do a 12 month trip around Australia. His trip involved doing some of the outback dirt roads (Great Central Road etc). Due to this, he decided to option up the NP with aftermarket suspension lift. All arranged by the dealer and fitted pre delivery. The dealer also offered him an extended warranty which he declined.
They spent a couple of months preparing for the trip before leaving Canberra. All camper and car weights were well within limits. When in Bourke, they noticed that the chassis on the NP300 had bent. They hadn't even hit the dirt yet. The car and camper were towed back to Dubbo where everything was weighed and found to be within limits.
Warranty claim was rejected due to "aftermarket accessories fitted and external forces". It made no difference that the suspension modification was done/arranged pre delivery by the dealer. Insurance was also denied. He has been left high and dry with a $40,000 to $50,000 write off.
He came home, got his 18 year old Prado, and has now completed 16,000kms of his trip in that.
I'm not posting this to bag Nissan. Please find a "bent chassis" thread if you want to take this thread in that direction.
I'm posting this to let people know that they should have the "warranty" conversation with their dealer, and get a written warranty if they choose to have accessories or mods done pre delivery. I know that many people choose to have aftermarket mods and accessories fitted pre delivery because they believe that they will be covered by warranty.
Cheers
Martin
Nissan has the worst chassis out of the 4x4s,they have a section in the chassis rail that collects and hold water and they are known to chassis failure eg from rust and bending.Google np chassis,these were also recalled in england for this same reason.i went to a dmax as there is NO comparison with anything on the market i believe,i also have a sixwheel conversion done and also a lot of other things have been done and rest assured isuzu has not had a problem fixing my aircon and waterpump under warranty. :occasion14:
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Martin, I understand, and appreciate, the point that you make about warranty.
It would be helpful to know the details of the aftermarket suspension that was fitted, in order to provide context to the discussion. People want to know how and why things bend so they can avoid similar pitfalls.
The brand fitted was OME.
Edit: Don't know the particulars though.
Cheers
Martin
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What load rating was the OME package? Was the fitment of the OME package part of a GVM upgrade? Any supplementary air bags fitted?
Cheers
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just had OEM suspension fitted to my MUX by ARB, speaking to the guys at ARB they assured me that everything they sell and fit does not affect warranty including the suspension they just fitted to my MUX, he said that If you break somthing on your vehicle and isuzu claim its directly a result of the After market ARB parts/ accesories then get them to put it in writing and fowaerd it to ARB and they will have to take care of it.
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just had OEM suspension fitted to my MUX by ARB, speaking to the guys at ARB they assured me that everything they sell and fit does not affect warranty including the suspension they just fitted to my MUX, he said that If you break somthing on your vehicle and isuzu claim its directly a result of the After market ARB parts/ accesories then get them to put it in writing and fowaerd it to ARB and they will have to take care of it.
Thanks voids. I will pass this bit of info on to my mate although won't be in touch for a while. I guess it's a case of ARB backing up their work and reputation, something the Nissan dealer won't do, runs a mile instead. I would still be somewhat sceptical without that promise in writing though.
I assume you mean OME, not OEM.
Cheers
Martin
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just had OEM suspension fitted to my MUX by ARB, speaking to the guys at ARB they assured me that everything they sell and fit does not affect warranty including the suspension they just fitted to my MUX, he said that If you break somthing on your vehicle and isuzu claim its directly a result of the After market ARB parts/ accesories then get them to put it in writing and fowaerd it to ARB and they will have to take care of it.
Sorry voids the ARB's blokes were pulling ya leg , just telling you what they thought you wanted to hear .
Anything that has not got a genuine Isuzu sticker/part number will effect the OEM warranty , even if you buy it from and have the dealer fit it .
They will point the finger at the accessory if they possibly can , even if you and everyone else knows it's BS ,
The owner is then between a rock and a hard place, IUA saying not our problem and we don't have to prove it we just need to say so , and the aftermarket mob saying the same .
I have seen it happen time and time again , just take a look at the cracked guard problem , IUA blame aftermarket Bull Bars , Suspension even though completely stock Isuzu's have had the same issue .
My local Isuzu Dealer has a heap of ARB gear in the showroom, they are very happy to sell and fit it for you but when asked about it effecting warranty the answer is yes it does .
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My new D-Max had a towbar fitted as part of a package. Seems it is not a genuine Isuzu part. If I tow something and a problem develops is my warranty void?
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Not if the bar was fitted by the dealer.
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The dealer has the warranty responsibility, not IUA, since it isn't one of their bars. All issues, if any, rest with the fitting dealer.
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For what it's worth - The dealer that sold me my MUX in WA told me that they make people sign an acknowledgement that a dealer fitted ARB bull bar will void the IUA chassis warranty as they have to drill out some of the mounting holes.
Didn't challenge on it as I was getting the OEM bar.
JM