Oz Isuzu Forums
General Boards => Off Topic => Topic started by: yvesjv on Jul 13, 2022, 05:53:29 AM
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This is heavily criticized on the geek sites
https://www.theverge.com/2022/7/12/23204950/bmw-subscriptions-microtransactions-heated-seats-feature
In cold winters, you'll have to pay a subscription for the seat to heat up.
Guess most in NZ are going to dump that manufacturers car or run the car for a good few minutes with heater on first.
Until the heater becomes subscription base...
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Once upon a time, in a land far, far away, lived a people who worked hard and saved little by little.
And with those hard won savings, bought a few luxuries which they then owned for life, and said luxury items were often handed down, father to son.
Opponents to this New World Order (NWO) often state;
"In the very near future, you will own nothing and rent everything, and you will be happy."
I used to buy CD's, but now my new Isuzu doesn't have a CD player.
Previously, I had a "Free" collection of favourites in Pandora's Box, but that was terminated for some reason. So I changed to Spotify and saved all my favourites again. After a period of time of free uninterrupted usage, I started getting ads. The ad frequency increased until it pissed me off! Then they offered a Premium membership, which was ad free for only $9.99 per month.
How long will it be before it becomes $99.99 per month?
I could see the whole system is designed to slowly suck you in, unlimited access to everything NOW!
It will only cost you a little piece of your soul.
The younger generation don't know anything, and don't care. 24 hour a day entertainment by visual or aural stimulation, disconnected from real people, real conversation and real life. With all the political propaganda entwined .............. and so they are lead like lambs to the slaughter.
Ok, I feel better now. Time to go put my head back in the sand. :p
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The wifes BMW's for the past 13 years have all had subscriptions for something or other. Its basically a service cost for them to constantly update software, over the air software updates, Microsoft licensing for Office and other such software available on the system, etc etc. If you can afford a luxury car, you can afford the costs that come with it, from insurance to servicing and parts.
Isuzu, you get X amount of software updates free, then you have to pay for them. Software evolution costs them money. Not much of a business model if you give everything away free. Well, you won't be in business long.
The wifes car usually gets multiple over the air software updates per annum, and they not only add features, but they improve features. When we got her latest one a couple of years ago, the assisted driving sucked. It was like the new Dmax initially. Now though.... total faith in letting that car drive itself on a highway with little interaction from the driver. That was all software upgrades that are subscribed. I think they had pumped out about 6 updates that first year, rapid improvement in those features.
Like all cars, the speedo used to be several KM's out of whack. A software update some time ago installed a correction you can make yourself, to bring the speedo to the actual GPS speed. You're doing 100 and it says 100. That was developed after we purchased the car, yet we get the feature after the fact. That is what you get with BMW software subscription, ongoing improvements to your driving experience. There are many little features they have added since we purchased the car.
Just my two cents from someone who has had one in the garage for 13 years. They say BMW has been doing this since 2020, again, 13 years the wife has owned one, usually upgrades every 3 years, and each one has had a subscription service of some type available for it.
The servicing, she pays a subscription cost at the start and gets as many services as she wants within that period, no further cost for labour or parts. They drive from Geelong with a lone car to Melbourne, swap, then repeat the next day. No further cost. Not many manufacturers have service like that for their customers. I certainly don't get any of that from Isuzu, yet I also did not pay anywhere near the same cost for the Dmax.
For business, or luxury personal use, BMW is leading the way compared to Mercedes, which really crap on their owners after buying. We have friends who had Mercedes, even my sister had one, and they all eventually moved away to either BMW or Audi because Mercedes treated them like crap after the fact.
If memory serves correct, I think Hyundai or Kia were introducing subscription software too. Same reason... they can keep updating their cars and not lose money on it. Customers are happy, company stays in business.
I would love it if Isuzu had an over the air subscription service. I think the new Ranger has shifted to the same service. Features and upgrades at your finger tips.
If you haven't tried it, you should. I could understand people getting upset if they got nothing for their money, but we get updates and upgrades ongoing, no inconvenience to us, and amazing service from BMW. I mean next level service. Before having a BMW, I'd never experienced service of that level. They go the extra mile to keep you as a happy customer.
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I liked Lizard13's comment in the OP's link:
"Companies like this exist to extract money out of people who like spending money. Seems fair enough."
WAI4WD, it's notable that $ does not feature in your response. From what you've said, it seems that you are paying a subscription fee for regular maintenance, and other subscription fees for over-the-air feature updates. For the benefit of us pensioners out here, just exactly how much does all this cost? Be honest now, otherwise your deception is as bad as BMW's.
Regards,
Dilbert
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I'm totally fascinated by this BMW offering:
https://www.bmw.co.uk/en/shop/ls/dp/ISS_Offer_gb
A driving experience that stirs all the senses: transfer your vehicle’s unmistakable, sporty BMW sound directly into the vehicle interior with the IconicSounds Sport feature.
You pay AUD180 to activate, via remote software download, acoustic data that's piped into your sound system that replicates the sound of your car (from the outside presumably).
What happened to winding down the windows if you want that experience? A logical extension of this "functionality" will be the "wind-through-your hair" experience by manipulating the outputs of the climate control system!
Heaven forbid.
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See, I prefer the real world, to the virtual world. I've ridden fast motorcycles most of my life with loud exhausts. And trying to get either the pegs, knees or elbows down in the real world, cannot be replicated in the virtual experience, because there is not the element of danger or death. I've survived, just. :tard:
Now that I'm old, deaf and decrepit, I've settled for a bog stock d-max with a slow diesel and quiet exhaust.
But I have lived a life outside of a computer.
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WAI4WD, it's notable that $ does not feature in your response.
Subscription software usually works out around $100 per annum, bit more maybe. If you buy a service package, they range in cost, but are typically either side of 2k. Servicing is a bit different though. Wheels get balanced, aligned, anything that the vehicle needs to run as new, gets done.
You can see packages online: https://www.bmw.com/en-au/offers-and-services/personal-services/service-inclusive.html
It usually works out cheaper with the service package, especially with brake changes.
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Its basically a service cost for them to constantly update software, over the air software updates, Microsoft licensing for Office and other such software available on the system, etc etc. If you can afford a luxury car, you can afford the costs that come with it, from insurance to servicing and parts.
[Begin rant]
To use this analogy with Microsoft, well I'm a Unix/Linux user and has been for decades.
This subscription issue with Office and other 'cloud' services just doesn't apply to the rest of the world.
They sell features you do not need but you have to buy the whole crappy thing (that has bells and whistles) to run an instance of Word, Excel or Chrome/Firefox...
Plus you have to update your hardware to run the latest fanciest version when you do not really have to
That is where todays marketing and the shrinks they employ have taken us, you are convinced to buy bloatware and feel good about it while your pockets are emptied.
When I buy a device, I research to see if it can be wiped and replaced with an open-source package running a *nix kernel.
They can take their subscriptions based support model to someone else that wants it and likes it, that is ok with me as it is traditionally so buggy that it keeps all IT techs in a job somewhere.
[/close rant]
Note:- A company called RedHat is trying to become the Micro$oft of the *Nix world by forcing their support model onto everyone.
Guess what happened, geeks worldwide united and rewrote their individual operating systems to bypass their crappy software trap.
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[Begin rant]
To use this analogy with Microsoft, well I'm a Unix/Linux user and has been for decades.
This subscription issue with Office and other 'cloud' services just doesn't apply to the rest of the world.
You can buy Office outright. You just don't get ongoing updates beyond the first year, same old, same old.
I do agree with your rant for some cases in software. A lot of companies have shifted to a subscription model instead of outright owning the software, which is just wrong. You should have the option, which Microsoft and others provide. You can buy lifetime in BMW too, for that car, for your account. Sell the car, BMW win and everyone starts again.
I seen an issue the other day with digital movies. A company went broke, so everyone lost everything. The TOS, like all of them state, even though you buy the movie, you don't own it. You have purchased the rights to access the digital version through their platform whilst their platform offers the service. If they shut it down, you lose everything.
Downloading them is much easier combined with Plex. Not that I know anything about that though!
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Someone has already mentioned a way to deal with this:
Bimmercode
https://bimmercode.app
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Yer... hacking a BMW ECU would not be on my list of things to do. Especially within the warranty period. Even though it is for minor little things... not a risk I would take.
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Surely this is about ownership? I pay x$ and purchase a BMW which I then own. If I want MY seats heated then I flick a switch. I’d be very interested in seeing the BMW purchase contract. Truth be known most BMW owners have lease agreements.
WRT software (excluding open source) you have never owned it, the money you pay gives you the right to use it in perpetuity until it’s superseded.
There is much more to this argument than just affordability and ownership.
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Surely this is about ownership? I pay x$ and purchase a BMW which I then own. If I want MY seats heated then I flick a switch.
Yer, I don't know what there is new that the article mentions specifically, ours had buttons for seat heating. Maybe they're going down the route of a single seat for all vehicles which brings down the price for them, activating features via software instead?
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Surely this is about ownership? I pay x$ and purchase a BMW which I then own. If I want MY seats heated then I flick a switch. I’d be very interested in seeing the BMW purchase contract. Truth be known most BMW owners have lease agreements.
WRT software (excluding open source) you have never owned it, the money you pay gives you the right to use it in perpetuity until it’s superseded.
There is much more to this argument than just affordability and ownership.
I haven't followed this issue really closely, but my understanding is that if you bought a BMW that included a feature, such as heated seats, it will always have them. The subscription is for a feature your car doesn't have, but may still be included in it's wiring loom/ECU etc. You pay the subscription and you unlock that feature, probably activated by an app or similar, and can use it for as long as you pay the subscription. So effectively you buy a lower spec model, and can subscribe to higher spec features in the future. If you buy the higher spec model to start with, you will always have it's features, although you may be able to subscribe and get updated/improved versions if you want.
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BMW has replied:
https://www.thedrive.com/news/bmw-responds-to-fury-over-heated-seats-subscription-fee
Not looking good the future is...
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In this way, BMW might be able to save money by streamlining production, but unless a customer actually orders heated seats in a car, they'll just be sitting around until they're paid for, via a subscription or otherwise.
Pretty much what I thought... instead of making various seats, they make one, which is cheaper overall. If you buy the feature, you get it for life. If you want it later on, you can activate it at a cost.
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The argument can be summed to: subscriptions based services are coming for cars and not everyone likes this future.
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Yanks are starting to push back and calling it what it is::
https://www.thedrive.com/news/new-jersey-legislators-aim-to-ban-most-in-car-subscriptions
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If increases in costs are mitigated because production is streamlined, I don't really see the issue. If you don't check an option box or opt in later, that's on you. If you have paid for your vehicle to have a feature, then it goes without saying that such features should work for the life of the vehicle, and be transferrable between owners.
To my eye, the approach from certain consumers seems to be "my car has seat warmer hardware installed, therefore it should just work no matter what." Expecting to have unfettered access to a feature you haven't paid for is a pretty puerile attitude, in my opinion.
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In my opinion it is naive to believe that a manufacturer installs inactive hardware in a new car for free, and they only charge customers who opt to activate said hardware. There is no doubt in my mind that the manufacturer will recoup the (mitigated) cost of the installed hardware at point-of-sale, regardless of whether the consumer chooses to activate it or not. Those who choose not to activate are paying for something they don't want, but are going to get anyway. They are probably also indirectly subsidising the people who do choose to activate.
It's a bit like having aircon shoved down your throat; or more recently having "intelligent driver assist" systems and devices shoved down your throat. Yes, the latter is mandated by government, but the principle is the same. You end up paying big time for something you may not want.
It's an unethical practice designed to minimise the manufacturer's costs of production, and maximise the manufacturer's take at point-of-sale. Corporate greed, not the customer, is the motive.
Where are we headed? It's foreseeable that when you open your car door you will see a message on the head unit saying "Have you paid your subscription this month? If not, Isuzu HQ will not let you start your car!" Or you'll be consigned to a limp mode. Or the message advises that your credit card has been debited for the following activated services...bum warmer...hand warmer...sport mode...ECU update...6th gear...radio...etc. Where does it stop?
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it is naive to believe that a manufacturer installs inactive hardware in a new car for free, and they only charge customers who opt to activate said hardware.
I believe any differences would, by law, be made obvious in the bill of sale. Anyone with the wherewithal to buy a new car is capable of checking their bill and asking the relevant questions, as easily as they can blindly pay the moron tax. Forgive my likely-outdated mental map of the 3-Series hierarchy, but expecting 335i features for 318i money, purely because various bits might be present and ready for deployment at the customer's financial discretion, is just daft.
Whether models in the range do go up in price purely because of added elements is open for debate... but the list price of nearly every new car has gone up anyway for reasons ranging from zero, to COVID, to "demand", to midlife upgrades. Looking for granular detail and transparency in that arena is like dissecting warm jelly with a scalpel. Good luck.
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While I too find it hard to believe that a manufacturer would only build one model with all the top end electronics physically installed, but not activated, that is until sold.
You tick the boxes and pays ya money.
I have a $5k hearing aid, custom molded to fit my ear canal. There are five different models to choose from depending on the features and level of performance your require (or can afford).
You put the hearing aid in, the consultant/technician/sales person turns on each individual feature you require, and tunes it via bluetooth from their pc. Then hands you the invoice.
Each device is physically equipped with the latest electronic features.
At any time you can upgrade your device to a higher standard, via their bluetooth, and your cash.
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Where does it stop?
I think this is a rort.
A very dishonest practice taking advantage of people that buy a product for prestige, bragging points and the likes.
It may generate a generous income stream for the business but it would be akin to paying multiple rents to an astute grifter.
Meanwhile I bet the rest of us just want the product as advertised, period.
Buy the car as built, pay the yearly insurance and the road-assist and done.
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I'm still failing to see why this is an issue, or why people are so scared of it. If you're buying the car new, and you want something available with it, tick the box, pay your money and it's yours for life. Your circumstances change a year later and some function you didn't select would now be beneficial for you, subscribe and activate it. Ditto if you buy the car second hand and the original buyer didn't pick something you want.
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I'm still failing to see why this is an issue
I think there's a preconceived notion that because some widget or other is present in a device but not enabled, you're somehow being ripped off, even when it can be demonstrated that the next customer with the feature enabled pays more.
WJ957's example is very apt; in some cases streamlining the production process by including as much potential functionality as possible will help to make a complete product accessible to more customers more readily, instead of fiddling with a hundred different configurations specifically to order.
The only argument with any traction that I can see is the possibility of the base price of something being inflated to compensate, but that argument deliberately ignores potential savings made along the way in personnel, machinery, buildings for production lines and the like. And even if the price has increased by a consolidated amount for consolidated reasons... good luck breaking that down into double or triple-digit figures for widgets. That's wishful thinking.
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And Merc has decided to start scamming too.
Subscription fee for the ability to accelerate on a couple of EV models...
https://www.theverge.com/2022/11/23/23474969/mercedes-car-subscription-faster-acceleration-feature-price
Next I guess would be a subscription for breathing the oxygen coming in through the air vents... just kidding!
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At the risk of being labelled by the more intelligent members of the forum as being scared, or a moron, I think this is just plain wrong. $1200 per year to access the vehicle's full performance potential is outright manufacturer extortion.
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I don't think anyone's arguing that recurring charges for features like heated seats is a good idea. An annual charge for an acceleration option such as the Mercedes example is wrong without question; the feature should either be paid and delivered, or not.
However, having a feature enabled for a one-time fee, and therefore achieving the exact same end result as having the vehicle conventionally equipped with said feature, is fine.
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I don't think anyone's arguing that recurring charges for features like heated seats is a good idea. An annual charge for an acceleration option such as the Mercedes example is wrong without question; the feature should either be paid and delivered, or not.
However, having a feature enabled for a one-time fee, and therefore achieving the exact same end result as having the vehicle conventionally equipped with said feature, is fine.
Yes, I still see no issue with a one off fee to enable a feature, whether you pay that when you purchase the car or further down the track. Holding owners to ransom by requiring continuous paying to access features is an issue though. None of the stories I've seen on this seem to indicate that Mercedes is giving owners the option to pay for it in one hit, it's only by subscription, and that's a pretty low act, even by the very low bar set by Mercedes generally.
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Well... Merc sales fell off a cliff when they went to a fixed pricing model. Just more silly stuff from them.
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...a pretty low act, even by the very low bar set by Mercedes generally.
Indeed. Mercedes seems bent on hanging itself in Australia. It's a good thing that we're barely a blip on their sales graphs, because some of their latest styling efforts are truly hideous.