Oz Isuzu Forums
General Boards => Off Topic => Topic started by: yvesjv on May 26, 2020, 07:43:34 AM
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Dunno how that's going to workout way out on the Gibb road or the Cape but as solar gets improved all the time, could be something in it.
https://thedriven.io/2020/05/25/morrison-government-finally-admits-there-will-be-electric-utes-and-evs-can-tow-caravans/
But the useless politicos are known to promise to do it better than qualified engineers by doing it "better, faster and cheaper" <sarcasm intended>
Good luck with that!
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Check out Rivian. They are planning to land in Australia with right hand drive this year, according to US articles.
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I can't see electric tow vehicles taking over internal combustion for some time yet, well not for me anyway.
Last time I headed east in 2015, I drove three very long days to get from Perth to Port Agusta driving 12hour days.
Maybe if they can come up with a rapid fill system. Having a long range tank, I can tow all day without needing to refill but can't see that happening with electrics.
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I can't see electric tow vehicles taking over internal combustion for some time yet, well not for me anyway.
Last time I headed east in 2015, I drove three very long days to get from Perth to Port Agusta driving 12hour days.
Maybe if they can come up with a rapid fill system. Having a long range tank, I can tow all day without needing to refill but can't see that happening with electrics.
Al you need to do is tow a trailer with a diesel generator on the back running at full tilt all the time running the electric motors.
Easy
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If they can build an electric prime mover capable of towing freight, I think towing s caravan might be doable. It will depend on scale, I guess. How big/heavy will the batteries need to be? And, as you mention, how quickly will they be replenished and from what source.
Towing a generator might just work. Or maybe a wind turbine on a trailer....
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[quote
Al you need to do is tow a trailer with a diesel generator on the back running at full tilt all the time running the electric motors.
[/quote]
Sounds just like a diesel electric train locomotive, except they are normally put those in front of their tow loads :laughing7:
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So lets see, I will tow the van and my wife can be in her car towing a trailer with the genny on the back. All I need now is a long extension lead or maybe I should work on the idea of transmitting the charging power via UHF.:dontknow: :laughing4:
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Check out Rivian. They are planning to land in Australia with right hand drive this year, according to US articles.
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For what I have read the Rivian will have a starting price of $100,000. Not in many people's budget.
In one story a few responders said they would buy. Reality says when the time come they won't.
Talk is cheap.
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Check out Rivian. They are planning to land in Australia with right hand drive this year, according to US articles.
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For what I have read the Rivian will have a starting price of $100,000. Not in many people's budget.
In one story a few responders said they would buy. Reality says when the time come they won't.
Talk is cheap.
At that price, I'll get two.
Not.
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Charge station powered by a generator.
https://thedriven.io/2018/12/14/diesel-charge-evs-remote-locations-greener-than-you-think/
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The Tesla Supercharger takes about an hour to fully charge a Tesla Model X. Wouldn't want to be in a queue!
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Im all for saving the planet.
But there are far greater problems on this planet that diesel fumes.
Our population is growing logarithmically, and with more people comes more deforestation, more food crops, more pollution and more environmental destruction.
The least advanced cultures are the worst offenders, breeding out of control and far beyond their capability to support the massive increase in numbers.
Sooner or later we will have to come to the point of no return.
Mass migration by way of invasion will happen, but this will not solve the problem, only exacerbate it.
There is so much wasted effort in trying to stop a symptom when they should be working out how to reduce the worlds population.
Not by genocide or other unsavory means, but by compulsory contraception.
if you cannot support your population, reduce the numbers and keep them low.
Instead, we waste our time thinking up bigger and better ways to make life hard for everyone.
battery powered cars are a gimmick, nothing more, nothing less.
They are not practical, efficient, safe or cheap.
We do not have the technology to make them efficient, practical, safe or cheap, so its a no brainer.
People want to simply get into their vehicle and drive.
they want no restrictions, like sitting around at some charging station for hours to top up before they drive.
We have huge distances to travel in Australia, I just cannot imagine driving from Melbourne to Perth in a toy car.
Then there is the batteries, seriously?
The make up of batteries is a rather nasty, toxic and flamable material.
They catch fire and its a case of "LET IT BURN" because they cannot put it out.
All the toxic fumes billow everywhere, great in a city I imagine.
And after a few years when the batteries can no longer hold a charge, they will have to be replaced.
You think replacing an engine is expensive, wait until you have to fork out for a battery in those things.
Then they have to dispose of the toxic things...wow.
finally there is the myth that they are environmentally friendly.
They have to be charged, where does that power come from? Power stations, nuclear or coal fired, because there is no viable alterative yet.
The batteries have to be manufactured, out of...... you guessed it, toxic materials.
Unless we have a massive technological brainwave and find some way to generate power better, make batteries more efficient and faster charging and can produce them at a reasonable cost.
We need to keep good old diesel.
I certanly will never be able to afford an electric car, nor do I want one.
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battery powered cars are a gimmick, nothing more, nothing less.
They are not practical, efficient, safe or cheap.
What's the name of your horse Valkie
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What's the name of your horse Valkie
Come on ajm... Valkie has a strong and valid opinion.
In an interesting post, he described part of a very complex problem.
IMHO, this battery solution is going to be a nightmare and that's because of the way our very capitalistic market works.
It has worked great for us that have steady employment in a stable environment and we couldn't care as long as we put food on the table, have a roof and can afford a big bash couple times per year.
But in these crazy times, it appears to have utterly failed the very many.
Yes, big business and their errand boys in the Govs are borrowing huge credit and trying to keep this global ecosystem system alive.
And I'll probably go along with it as I selfishly like myself and my close ones to retain the comforts this destructive system provides.
The battery systems that will under power the vehicles of the future will be I think part of our "consume and throw away" market.
It is too big a market of the future for big business not to disregard it and I think we are already looking at mining rare metals from the moon?!?
Ok rant over... it's Friday
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Yes, he does make some good points. But why let that get in the way of a good poke? I'm sure some of our fellow members will understand that.
My point, apart from being a bit of a payout, was one about the fact that he was repeating arguments used by the majority of horse owners when the automobile made its way into our history.
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Yes, he does make some good points. But why let that get in the way of a good poke? I'm sure some of our fellow members will understand that.
My point, apart from being a bit of a payout, was one about the fact that he was repeating arguments used by the majority of horse owners when the automobile made its way into our history.
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Yes, and at the time the automotive industry was a gimmick as well.
It took the likes of true genius to develop a vehicle that could meet the consumers need, be functional and reliable enough to replace the horses.
Do you know just how close we came to steam powered vehicles instead of the current petrol/ diesel vehicles we now drive?
Dont get me wrong.
I dont think we will NEVER have battery powered vehicles, or at least a less polluting system than we have now.
But not with the current technology.
I feel we are missing an important step here.
The mining industry (for which I have been working for over 30 years) uses hybrid vehicles for heavy hauling.
There huge vehicles have a diesel generator running electric motors in all the wheels.
They are much more reliable and economical than could ever be achieved with other systems.
And electric vehicles are being tested and developed as we speak for transportation and some work.
In fact, I am involved in this at the moment.
The battery problem was quite an issue, then the motors, suspension and the structural requirements for all these issues.
Its kept several engineers very busy for the last 4 years with still a few to go.
And the cost?
Well, lets just say I wish i had 2 months worth, I could retire very comfortably thank you.
But for the general public, electric vehicles are in the distant future.
One of our engineers explained to me a single problem that will make electric vehicles impossible for the short term.
It revolves around supply.
A house uses a certain amount of power (not sure exactly what he said)
But to charge an electric vehicle, twice that power would be required at least.
If there are two, or three vehicles in a house, you could draw up to 4x the current power load.
Now, while that may be OK for one house, what if everyone in the street has 2 or more electric vehicles, all coming home and charging up for the next day.
Then there are the delivery vehicles, taxies etc etc.
Now multiply that by suburbs, and cities.
We can barely get enough power now, what if suddenly we needed 4 times what we currently use?
Infrastructure could not handle the load, the power cables would be glowing red (no need for street lights)
Before electric vehicles could be the norm, infrastructure would have to be seriously upgraded, power stations increased several fold.
What's that I hear?
Solar panels?
again, you will need up to 4x your current use, most solar panel installations produce much less than that.
And at the same time the greenies oppose new power stations, dams and basically everything else.
I wish they would stop smoking the grass and do something constructive.
We may all have to revert to horses just to get to work, because our old dilapidated and obsolete power stations have reached their use by date, the solar panels have stopped being efficient and our electric cars have no means by which to be charged.
Again, with feeling.
In the short term, battery powered cars are a gimmick.
One that the wealthy and virtue signallers will spend a great deal of money on, good on them.
One day, perhaps they will be viable.
But it will take a great leap of science to do so.
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Still, it's always fun to have a poke.
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So we should be raising the curve not flattening it?
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It revolves around supply.
A house uses a certain amount of power (not sure exactly what he said)
But to charge an electric vehicle, twice that power would be required at least.
If there are two, or three vehicles in a house, you could draw up to 4x the current power load.
That is part of this complex equation.
Over here 'Power and Water' have a monopoly and the aged infrastructure they support CANNOT take in electrical power generated by solar roofs.
We did the study at work due to the amount of sunlight available and it was a CENSORED show.
They can only dish it out, raise the rates and it is dirty power at times.
To re-invest into modernising the infrastructure country wide is going to be on a par with the fiasco the NBN has become.
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It revolves around supply.
A house uses a certain amount of power (not sure exactly what he said)
But to charge an electric vehicle, twice that power would be required at least.
If there are two, or three vehicles in a house, you could draw up to 4x the current power load.
That is part of this complex equation.
Over here 'Power and Water' have a monopoly and the aged infrastructure they support CANNOT take in electrical power generated by solar roofs.
We did the study at work due to the amount of sunlight available and it was a CENSORED show.
They can only dish it out, raise the rates and it is dirty power at times.
To re-invest into modernising the infrastructure country wide is going to be on a par with the fiasco the NBN has become.
I think the grubberment will say.
"we will invest in the infrastructure as the need evolves"
In other words, we will wait until everyone complains and then do a half assed job implementing something that does half the job for half the time at twice the cost and twice the trouble.
But pushing electric cars, knowing that there is insufficient infrastructure or capacity to supply.
Is lies and misdirection.
There must be a better way to clean up diesel, without compromising its well demonstrated longevity?
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But pushing electric cars, knowing that there is insufficient infrastructure or capacity to supply.
Interestingly I spoke to a contractor who was previously engaged by NTGov to evaluate how much power would be generated if areas within the NT were to have solar panels installed.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Barkly,+NT/@-19.4859358,130.3256549,6z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x2b4cdae7e897d243:0xb308889fb2c4dd76!8m2!3d-20.3331817!4d136.2091547
If that isn't a sun baked country, I'll eat my hat. :toothy9:
But don't think that's going to happen in my lifetime...
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this was an interesting turn of events in the US.
https://www.ssforums.com/threads/general-motors-takes-2-billion-stake-in-electric-truck-startup-nikola.194720/
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No doubt about it, it is on the way but how are you going to refill the batteries when you are towing the van and half pull into Balladonia or Caiguna and you are just about empty? :dontknow:
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No doubt about it, it is on the way but how are you going to refill the batteries when you are towing the van and half pull into Balladonia or Caiguna and you are just about empty? :dontknow:
With the current pollies at the helm... what could possibly go wrong!! :evil6:
That reminded me of an old satirical cartoon that made me laugh at the time of its posting...
(https://i.ibb.co/HN633Dw/Australian-Space-Program.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HN633Dw)
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No doubt about it, it is on the way but how are you going to refill the batteries when you are towing the van and half pull into Balladonia or Caiguna and you are just about empty? :dontknow:
There was a mob a while ago that was rolling out power stations (electric service stations) all over the country. Wonder what happened to them.
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None of the political parties are serious about renewables. The big solar and wind farm near Hughenden western Qld has been finished in the construction phase and ready to go for a year and a half but they won’t let them put more than about 15% of generated capacity into the grid because the Qld government hasn’t upgraded the grid hardware in the area. Other big projects have fallen over due to the same issue.
It’s all talk, smoke and mirrors.
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And yet, the Queensland Government has opened the registrations of interest period for its three planned Renewable Energy Zones.
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I am not familiar with this particular situation but I would imagine that Hughenden was getting toward the end of the supple line from the main grid closer to the coast so now they are going to feed the supply in the opposite direction resulting in the need to beef up the line back the other way so not that simple as just plugging it in.
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Sure, but these projects have been years in the planning, then construction. Not just done overnight. They are all happy to talk about the benefits but don’t actually do much to upgrade the infrastructure that we have been paying for anyway.
Hughenden is in the middle between massive mining ventures that are very power hungry. Like I said, they are all talk.
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Years in the planning....rubbish. isn't there an election soon? Anastasia organised this herself just this week. after dealing with the bully PM, she was just all go go go.
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As for feeding stuff back in, I discovered that a manure pile burns for days. It's obviously what is keeping Canberra powered up. Maybe that is what everybody has been referring to when they say don't burn that dirty CENSORED anymore.
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AJM, the projects I’m referring to are already built. Can produce power but aren’t allowed to feed in their full capacity into the grid due to lack of upgraded government owned infrastructure.
They talk the talk but don’t actually do any of the hard work required
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Oh come now sir. Our politicians can't possibly do two things at once.
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Reviving this old thread:
We may have a winner on the horizon
https://www.techspot.com/news/99308-toyota-battery-breakthrough-lead-745-mile-evs.html
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As the article says, seeing is believing... and hopefully the "seeing" isn't confined to roadside infernos.
These are key though; battery capacities along with safe charging and drain rates really need to benefit from these advances if EV utes and SUVs are to be taken seriously. I still can't believe the inefficacy of current offerings when it comes to range, especially when laden to their very modest (and often chuckle-inducing) limits.
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... could I be any less interested. {edit: In the application of EVs for tradies - I actually do want an ADR'd EV Motard} May be good for inner CBD couriers only, however, for best part of what, $70K, put a fat apprentice in the front, 500Kg of tools in the back and pull a tonne of pavers in an 8x5...
See how much you can accomplish with that pipe dream. Full EV work vehicles for Tradies... Thats some primo "Blue Sky Thinking" wet dream circle jerking right there...
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That's such an acute, helpful observation there. Thanks so much...
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... I'm here all week, Try the veal.
;)
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You've lost me completely now. :icon_salut:
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Boy, am I glad we're in an 'off topic' thread.
They say "if you have to explain it, then it aint funny" and I cant back pedal out of this quick enough.
"... I'm here all week, try the veal" is a self effacing reference to American Jewish comedy clubs (think Billy Crystal in the 6o's, and his first attempts at comedy standup)
Scenario... Young aspiring performer on stage in a bad neighbourhood bar on standup comedy night, disinterested audience, lame jokes, the performance 'bombs' and there's lack of applause as his 'set' finishes. He signs out: "you've been a wonderful audience, tip your waitress, try the Veal, I'm here all week"
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I just deleted an obscene amount of text, because it was becoming a bit of a rant.
In short, as far as I'm concerned, batteries will be neither good enough nor in ready supply in the forseeable future, and I'll probably be worm food before we can plug half the country in at night without crashing the grid.
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Well we can only hope the progress into a viable solution.
IMHO diesel is here to stay for quite awhile, think road trains and the likes.
But it wouldn't hurt at all if you could get 500 Ks from an EV while fully loaded.
Darwin to Alice is about 1500 Ks, we usually do it in two hops: Spend some time in Mataranka overnight and next day midday refuel at Tennant Creek.
That should be feasible if they come up with an EV system that will do the distances.
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Hey, I'd love to see it. Who wouldn't love having all the torque available immediately in their off-roading tow donkey?
Infrastructure and batteries are the biggest impediments I can see. As you say, diesel is here to stay for a long time yet, and anyone avoiding diesel out of fear that electric is going to somehow kill their investment is kidding themselves.
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In short, as far as I'm concerned, batteries will be neither good enough nor in ready supply in the forseeable future, and I'll probably be worm food before we can plug half the country in at night without crashing the grid.
:laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:
That's probably because some bureaucrats with no spine will sell their version of the grid "faster, better and cheaper" to get elected and endup costing 10 times as much to the taxpayer in the end ;)
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laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:
That's probably because some bureaucrats with no spine will sell their version of the grid "faster, better and cheaper" to get elected and endup costing 10 times as much to the taxpayer in the end ;)
Where have we seen that before?
What's that, NBN? Hold your beer?
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I haven't seen an electric/battery powered semi, B-double or even a small Pantech yet.
One mining company claims to be going electric with their giant dump trucks, but they don't stray far from base ................ at a speed of about 40 kph.
18 wheeler doing 1,000km overnight Sydney-Brisbane? I don't think so, cars are no where near that yet.
And the payload would be seriously diminished to allow for the tonnage of batteries on board.
Re-charging? I dunno, maybe 12 hours.
Before this post goes ballistic I would suggest we leave sex, politics and religion out, of all things Isuzu.
In closing, I would like to say ............... batteries are gay!
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John Cadogan has done a couple of very well-reasoned bits on this exact aspect of the EV truck debate. Highlights include the hobbled payloads such vehicles would have due to the massive battery packs required, the eyewateringly expensive and power hungry nature of a charger network that would come close to keeping such a fleet moving across our land, and increased numbers of drivers required due to the sheer number of hours added to shifts by charging wait times, to name a few.
To quote him loosely, EV tech doesn't scale well for that application, and that's before you consider manpower obstacles. Apart from the above at least, you're all set... providing you can get a hold of enough minerals to build a profitable fleet and swap out the aging, constantly-cycling batteries.
Sometimes you just gotta shake your head.
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HEAT
when we work our vehicles hard -eg towing we use auto trans coolers to dissipate heat.
with electric vehicles working hard there is going to be heat issues also- how do we cool that?
there is a lot of heat generated on charging batteries particularly on fast charge (and high discharge also).
heat and electricity go hand in hand but are also enemies!
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John Cadogan has done a couple of very well-reasoned bits on this exact aspect of the EV truck debate. High (https://betpokies.co.nz/high-roller-casinos)lights include the hobbled payloads such vehicles would have due to the massive battery packs required, the eyewateringly expensive and power hungry nature of a charger network that would come close to keeping such a fleet moving across our land, and increased numbers of drivers required due to the sheer number of hours added to shifts by charging wait times, to name a few.
To quote him loosely, EV tech doesn't scale well for that application, and that's before you consider manpower obstacles. Apart from the above at least, you're all set... providing you can get a hold of enough minerals to build a profitable fleet and swap out the aging, constantly-cycling batteries.
Sometimes you just gotta shake your head.
The battery packs must be very big. Very big. The efficiency of such a truck will not be very high, so there will be increased costs. And this will all affect the cost of other products. No, electric trucks are not going to become popular anytime soon. Unless a very energy efficient battery is invented.
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...unless a very energy efficient battery is invented.
Yes, as usual battery tech is the weak point of the whole equation. Don't get me wrong, I love the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow; who wouldn't want an electric vehicle that can replace an equivalent diesel without the current swathe of compromises? But "compromise" (whether it be price, range, capability, durability, or all of the above) is the big sticking point... as it has always been with EV technology.
Batteries simply aren't up to the job on many fronts, and it's a pity.
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...unless a very energy efficient battery is invented.
Yes, as usual battery tech is the weak point of the whole equation. Don't get me wrong, I love the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow; who wouldn't want an electric vehicle that can replace an equivalent diesel without the current swathe of compromises? But "compromise" (whether it be price, range, capability, durability, or all of the above) is the big sticking point... as it has always been with EV technology.
Batteries simply aren't up to the job on many fronts, and it's a pity.
It will probably stay that way until another power cell is invented.
Maybe they will invent some kind of solar panels that will charge the electric car while driving. Who knows? I'm just dreaming :)
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There are already some vehicles out there with roof integrated solar... but in terms of charging the primary battery pack, the output is hopelessly inadequate, as you'd expect.
Bandt's answer seems to be "put solar everywhere" which would be a great idea... if we had unlimited air and water to pollute along the way...